[mtp-teoria] Re: [-] second life na iDC

dusan dusan at idealnypartner.sk
Mon Mar 12 18:49:34 CET 2007 

ahojte,


zhrniem vcerajsie prispevky.
marisu zaujimaju komunitne aspekty SL, zuzanu aj ekonomicke.
marisa priraduje SL (aj) k zabavnemu priemyslu a avizuje aprilovu prednasku
kristiana lukica z noveho sadu, ktory v SL robi projekty so studentami.
pripomina tiez ze autori SL dobre rozumeju virtualnemu kapitalizmu.
zuzana sa pyta na suvislosti kapitalizmu realneho sveta a SL.
milos dava tip na johna castiho z viedne pre aprilovu debatu o SL v BA
a dava do pozornosti deklaraciu nezavislosti kyberpriestoru spred 10 rokov,
kedy ho barlow vyhlasil za nezavisly od mocnosti industrialneho sveta
s poukazanim najma na nehierarchicku konfiguraciu kyberpriestoru.
padla linka na getafirstlife recesiu na SL.


moja osobna nedovera voci SL vyplyva z jeho uzavretosti (podobne ako
slovencina pre anglickych uzivatelov tohto mailing listu), beznej aj
pre ine technologie (napr. Flash). mozno namietat ze
rovnako je uzavrety internet pre ludi bez pripojenia, mam na mysli skor
uzavretost voci paralelnym aktivitam. SL mozete hrat iba na serveri
jeho poskytovatela; flashove subory sa medzi sebou nedaju linkovat -
na rozdiel od participativnych portalov postavenych na HTML pripadne
jeho odnoziach. dalsia moja namietka je ze SL je na to, ze stoji
na internete, zbytocne centralisticky. aby som to trochu podporil,
zbezne prejdem tzv "web 2.0" sluzby, s ktorymi ma SL vela spolocneho.


co maju teda spolocne youtube.com, blog.sme.sk, flickr.com a last.fm
(povedzme):
- kreativita OK
- zdielanie OK
- komunita OK
- pristup zdarma OK (dokonca sa firmy vzdali bonus sluzieb za poplatky -
  efekt: pocit rovnosti medzi uzivatelmi)
- participacia OBMEDZENA (v oblastiach danych poskytovatelom, spravidla
  iba upload/download obsahu a komunikacia s ostatnymi uzivatelmi;
  uzivatelia su vyradeni z rozhodovania o dalsom smerovani siete,
  konecne rozhodnutie je vzdy na poskytovatelovi sluzby; uzivatelia
  maju obmedzeny pristup k statistikam ostatnych uzivatelov)
- dostupnost OK (resp. tak ako vsetky online siete - v oblastiach
  s pripojenim)
- zavislost na poskytovatelovi OK (sluzba je poskytovana na vzdialenom
  serveri ktory ma v [aj pravne] rukach jej poskytovatel; uzivatelovi
  tym ale odpadaju starosti s nelegalnym obsahom)
- rozhodovanie 1-N (poskytovatel sluzby, sem-tam necha rozhodnut o mensich
  zalezitostiach uzivatelov - efekt: pocit participacie)
- autorstvo (vlastne blogy z blog.sme.sk moze uzivatel pejstnut inde iba
  so suhlasom poskytovatela sluzby a ak tak s jeho reklamou; na flickri
  si uzivatel moze vybrat pre svoj obsah rozne verzie creative commons
  prav; youtube ma vsetok obsah copyrightovany na seba)
- udrzatelnost (poskytovatel ma spravidla firmu, ktora vsetko financuje
  zo svojho az do doby, kedy svoje akcie preda za astronomicku sumu;
  takze ak je sluzba popularna, s cenami jej akcii rastie aj jej
  udrzatelnost, otaznou ostava nepredvidatelnost zmeny spravania
  poskytovatela, ktore je kompletne na nom)

problematickymi pri tychto sluzbach su teda participacia, autorstvo
a materialna zavislost na poskytovatelovi, este nieco vas napada?
co si o tom myslite? lisia sa v tomto nejak od "web 1.0" sluzieb?

vela sa tiez poukazuje na akusi virtualizaciu kapitalistickeho modelu
vykoristovania - "vyrobne" prostriedky vlastnia kapitalisti, vo virtualnej
tovarni si to odmaka za nulovu mzdu online proletariat, a "vyrobnym pasom"
tu je forma kreativity (na flickr fotky, na youtube videa, atd).

sumar:
- poskytovatel vytvoril nastroj; uzivatel tvori obsah
- poskytovatel profituje financne; uzivatel informacne a ma k dispozicii
  "hotovu" komunitu, nemusi vyvijat ziadne usilie na jej formovanie
- otazka pre uzivatela: poznas svojho admina?
- a dalsia: kto vlastni tvoje data?

pri SL navyse opustame HTML protokol a uzatvarame sa do virtualneho sveta
"nelinkovatelneho" zvonka (fotku na flickri mozete nalinkovat inam,
takisto video z youtube atd).

dusan




On Sun, March 11, 2007 2:25 pm, Miloš VOJTĹCHOVSKÝ said:
> here are some links to people i think are interesting for issues as
> virtual words
>
> john casti is teaching in viena and working at sante fe institute
> perhaps he could be the good person toinvite to bratislava
>
> perhaps to university phylosophic departement
>
> http://www.insna.org/index.html
>
> http://www.wzw.at/index.php?s=4&show=43&la=de
>
>
>
> a timeline of gaming from koster book
> http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/mudtimeline.shtml
>
> http://homes.eff.org/%7Ebarlow/Declaration-Final.html
> john perry barlow declaration of the independence of cyberspace from
> 1996 more utopic then ten years ago...
> ...
> Governments of the Industrial World, you weary giants of flesh and
> steel, I come from Cyberspace, the new home of Mind. On behalf of the
> future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome
> among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.
>
> We have no elected government, nor are we likely to have one, so I
> address you with no greater authority than that with which liberty
> itself always speaks. I declare the global social space we are building
> to be naturally independent of the tyrannies you seek to impose on us.
> You have no moral right to rule us nor do you possess any methods of
> enforcement we have true reason to fear.
>
> Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.
> You have neither solicited nor received ours. We did not invite you. You
> do not know us, nor do you know our world. Cyberspace does not lie
> within your borders. Do not think that you can build it, as though it
> were a public construction project. You cannot. It is an act of nature
> and it grows itself through our collective actions.....
>
>
>
> industrial ICT goverments invaded long time ago the wasteland of the new
> cyberland by means of disneyland stalkers and heralds, video and game
> entertaining industry..
>
> i came across the article by Neal Stephenson about the science fiction
> and ICT
> in the beginning was the command line
>
> http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html
>
> generaly it is juisy issue, but difficult to deal with-- very complex..
> dealing with religion, irationality and transcendence . to apply
> critical methods to the pop idols young people are adoring because they
> have been grown up with and educated with  is ofcourse not easy..
>
> i think the whole bussiness of computer gaming is merely debilitating as
> most of the moving image industry, with a rare exceptions offcourse..
>
> stretnout ludi ktori ziju v SL by ovsem bylo dost zajimave...
>
> zdravi
>
> milos v
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> Maria Riskova <maria at nada.sk> 11.3.2007 8:42 >>>
> urcite existuje dost ludi, co tam ziju aj u nas - mozeme to pocas
> multiplace zistit...
> pocas multiplace asi pride do bratislavy kristian lukic z noveho
> sadu, ktory na tuto temu rozvija projekty so studentami - mame
> moznost stretnut ludi, ktori v SL ziju. mne osobne sa nechce ist
> specialne do tohto vyskumu prilis hlboko, skor ma zaujimaju komunitne
> aspekty  - zuzana prejavila zaujem dozvediet sa o tom viac aj v
> rovine ekonomickych mechanizmov (da sa v tom pokracovat aj po
> festivale)
>
>
>
> ano, "profituju" je spravne slovo - ak sa hovori o materialnych
> statkoch. je to celkom fascinujuci fenomen, tato schopnost profitovat
> materialne na duchovnom (uz povestne prizivovanie reklamy na
> progresivnom umeni) - no nemyslim si, ze treba mat v ramci celeho
> multiplace radikalny postoj ne-propagacie ("nebudem propagovat nieco
> s cim nesuhlasim ani tym, ze to kritizujem")
>
> nemyslim si tiez, ze co sa tyka SL je to tajomstvo, o ktorom sa
> nevie, takisto ako o tom, ze zabavny priemysel je jeden z
> najrobustnejsich - podla mna, second life patri k zabavnemu
> priemyslu, ale mozno aj k niecomu inemu (???)
> otazka je, ci si to uvedomuje aj bezny uzivatel a ci ho to vobec zaujima
>
> a co sa tyka toho, ze "vela uzivatelov je v SL stastnych podobne ako
> vedia byt stastni v servilite voci kapitalizmu realneho sveta" - to
> ma zaujalo nieco: tzv. kapitalizmus ako ekonomicky a spolocensky
> system funguje tak dlho preto, ze ma neobycajnu schopnost
> prisposobenia sa novym podmienkam - a verte tomu, ze second life pre
> ludi, ktori na nom profituju nie je nic nerealne - burzy a bankove
> institucie a aj vobec cely penazny system su predsa zalozene na
> virtualnych zakladoch (zasadna kritika je, ze cisla zastupuju realne
> komodity a ze takmer vsetko sa dnes moze stat komoditou - tovarom)...
> v istom zmysle su tito ludia velmi vpredu v pochopeni virtuality
> ale tu sa uz citim dost trapne, pretoze o ekonomike viem figu - a
> trapne sa citim aj pri pouzivani terminu kapitalizmus, myslim, ze
> odbornici na ekonomiu by sa nam vysmiali, urcite existuje tisic
> podforiem a terminov, ktore umoznuju lepsie chapat tieto problemy a
> termin kapitalizmus sa dostava k slovam ako imperializmus,
> kolonializmus atd. - nenajdeme na mtp niekoho, kto sa v tom vyzna?
> ale mozno to nie je take nutne teraz - ale ak sa rozhodneme venovat
> sa sietam ako je second life podrobnejsie a urobit prezentaciu pocas
> mtp, tak by sme nejakeho odbornika mohli pozvat...
>
>
>
> ine svety marka skopa su second life pre nas, co zijeme "inde" - pre
> protagonistov dokumentu je to "first life" :)
> second life je skor "paralel" life
> http://www.getafirstlife.com/
> go outside, membership is free :)
>
> caute
> marisa
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:56 PM +0100 3/10/07, babuta at 34.sk wrote:
>>ahoj
>>ja nepoznam veru nikoho
>>kto by tam "zil"
>>a neviem ci by sa mne osobne do toho chcelo,
>>budovat si tam nejaky virtualny svet,
>>aj ked je pravda, ze o tom vela neviem.
>>ze co sa tam akoze deje a ponuka...
>>
>>{vlastne mtp ak teraz isiel ako spoluorganizator do tych ostrovov, tak
> sa
>>zaviazal presne k comu? alebo to bol len podpis pro forma?}
>>
>>no a akurat som bola prisla z kina
>>kde som bola druhy krat uz pozriet markove skopove ine svety,
>>tak to je podla mna second life...
>>
>>ale to len tak
>>aby sa vedelo
>>aj nieco z ineho oneho zitia
>>caute
>>
>>bbt
>>
>>On Sat, March 10, 2007 7:59 pm, dusan wrote:
>>>  ahojte
>>>
>>>  na iDC liste prebehla dvojtyzdnova debata o second life (SL). v
> sumari
>>>  nizsie.
>>>
>>>  kto nan nemate cas, zhrnuty v jednej vete: SL a vobec vacsina online
>>>  virtualnych svetov 'pozuje' ako otvorena platforma a i napriek
> vedomiu, ze
>>>  z "nematerialnej" prace (napr. univerzity do nich klonuju svoje
> budovy,
>>>  aktivisti v nich vedu svoje kampane) profituje viacmenej len elita
> online
>>  > podnikatelov, vela uzivatelov je v SL stastnych podobne ako vedia
> byt
>>  > stastni v servilite voci kapitalizmu realneho sveta..
>>>
>>>  mate so SL niekto skusenosti? neviem v sk/cz zatial o vela ludoch co
> ho
>>>  skusali. (mm trochu to znie ako znie to trochu ako)
>>>
>>>  dusan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  ---------------------------- Original Message
>>  > ----------------------------
>>>  Subject: [iDC] Second Life wrap-up; thanks
>>>  From:    "Joshua Levy" <joshualev at gmail.com>
>>>  Date:    Sat, March 10, 2007 5:27 pm
>>>  To:      "IDC list" <idc at bbs.thing.net>
>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>  Thanks all for a stimulating discussion about Second Life, gaming,
> labor,
>>>   and education.
>>>
>>>  Who is manufacturing virtual worlds and MMOs?  In response to Michel
>>>  Bauwens question about this, Ana Valdes points out that the games
> market
>>>  is almost 100 percent American, with these large companies having
> bought
>>>  our smaller European companies over time.  However, Julian Dibbell
> points
>>>   to a chart that suggests that U.S. companies are in fact
> responsible for
>>>   only 40-60% of worldwide games and the us market share is 61.3%.
> The
>>>  question of market dominance vs. ideological dominance comes into
> play
>>>  here.  Ana argues that, even if the market share isn't 100%, most
> video
>>>  games share an ideology with the U.S., though Michel says he
> witnesses in
>>>   Thailand dominant themes from Korea and Japan.
>>>
>>>
>>>  And on to the big L, which inspired some of the best discussion on
> the
>>>  cultural ramifications of virtual worlds, virtual labor, and virtual
>>>  economies.  Trebor opened the discussion by questioning the need to
>>>  replicate the architecture of real-world sites within Second Life.
> "Why
>>>  do we need a replication of our own campus? Why not rather build a
> Black
>>>  Mountain College with a Bauhaus Annex? Why teach in this virtual
>>>  environment? Will SecondLife become a 3D version of Wikipedia, a
> virtual
>>>  knowledge bank that offers a playful and fun interface to
>>>  participant-generated content? Will students simply demand such
> playful
>>>  access to knowledge?" he asks.  Eric Gordon offers a compelling
> argument
>>>  for why he helped reproduce Emerson College's architecture in SL:
> "our
>>>  decision to reproduce the architectural layout of campus and to
> recreate
>>>  the Boston Common was deliberately made to correspond with our
>>>  understanding of the platform's possibilities.  We see Second Life
> as a
>>>  way of creatively re-imagining the space.  While, we're not able to
>>>  screen student work in the physical Boston Common, it will be
> possible to
>>>  do so in Second Life.  "
>>>
>>>  In addition to this recreation of material space, he finds that SL
>>>  mirrors "first life capitalism" as well, that inequalities between
> labor
>>>  and capital exist there as they do anywhere else in the world.
> Like
>>>  historical relations between labor and capital, Trebor argues that
> users
>>>  of sociable web media are not aware of their servitude towards the
> owners
>>>   of those systems, though, like Michel, I take issue with his
> assertion
>>>  that "many people in the US actually think that they are 'happy' and
>>>  perceive this distributed labor of the sociable web as a fun leisure
>>>  activity."  We are not in a position to judge what many people in
> the
>>>  U.S..
>>>  think about their station in life, and to imply that the distributed
> labor
>>>   of the sociable web simply provides gains for the owners of capital
>>>  while pulling the wool over the eyes of the participants isn't fair
>>>  towards either party.
>>>
>>>  Alan Clinton offers a refreshing take on the problem of virtual
> labor:
>>>  "At
>>>  the risk of revising Marcuse, couldn't we say that consciousness of
>>>  servitude is not really the problem so much as providing strategies
> for
>>>  political agency?  People who are laboring know that they are
> laboring.
>>>  People (and let's not dismiss the global south so quickly) who are
>>>  suffering the violence of capitalism know they are suffering the
> violence
>>>  of servitude.  They may lack awareness of ways to name this violence
> or
>>>  attack it, but they are not unaware of their suffering." In response
> to
>>>  the problem of proprietary systems like SL posing as open platforms,
>>>  Andreas Schiffler suggests a radical, peer-to-peer system that
>>>  involving shared servers and open source software that become a
> challenge
>>>  to the "'Operating System + Deskop' metaphor sold by Microsoft and
> Apple."
>>>  This setup could also provide an
>>  > open source and peer-to-peer alternative to SL.
>>>
>>>  In response to Simon Biggs' provocation that "SL is a misnomer. It
> is not
>>>   a second life but simply a kind of first life, as constructed by a
>>>  dominant elite, represented in such a manner that it will function
> to
>>>  further inculcate and embed its associated ideology on a global
> scale. It
>>>  will sustain the fundamental ethic of consumerism...that we are all
>>>  potential suckers or grifters (often both) and that nobody is
> responsible
>>>  for what happens to anybody else. In short, it is another rip off
>>>  culture," I would point him to a group that I'm involved with,
>>>  RootsCampSL, progressive activists that use SL as a platform for
> their
>>>  work.  No one that I know there believes that their work stays in
> SL, but
>>>  that it offers a unique space (in addition to other unique space)
> from
>>>  whic to get the message out.  I would agree that SL is not a second
> life
>>>  but in fact an extension of first life, but I have failed to find a
>>>  dominant ideology there and in fact find it a fertile training
> ground for
>>>   almost any ideology at all -- kind of like first life. Of course, I
>>>  could just be blind to my own exploitation...
>>>
>>>  And Charlie Gere helps us remember that terrorism, exploitation, or
> even
>>>  rape in SL are not the same as their real-world counterparts.
> "Again
>>>  imagine the reaction of someone who has been involved in attempting
> to
>>>  build and sustain communities in, for example, Iraq or Palestine,
>>>  listening to someone describe the problems of community building in
> SL. I
>>>   think grasping and holding onto this distinction is incredibly
>>>  important." We need to keep perspective when talking about these
> virtual
>>>  worlds and to remember that, however they provide us with
> experiential or
>>>  spiritual stimulation, they are still secondary to the actual
>>>  life-or-death circumstances most global citizens face.
>>>
>>>  Looking forward to more discussion of this going forward; I trust
> that,
>>>  in the face of so much media hype that inflates the economic and
>>>  sensational aspects of SL, we can all provide an ongoing
>>>  counter-commentary that provides a little more depth and context.
>>>
>>>  -Josh Levy
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  iDC -- mailing list of the Institute for Distributed Creativity
>>>  (distributedcreativity.org) iDC at mailman.thing.net
>>>  http://mailman.thing.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/idc
>>>
>>>
>>>  List Archive:
>>>  http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/
>>>
>>>
>>>  iDC Photo Stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  mtp-teoria mailing list mtp-teoria at 13m3.sk
>>>  http://13m3.sk/mailman/listinfo/mtp-teoria
>>>
>>>
>>>  !DSPAM:2,45f300137645153710862!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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