[mtp-teoria] second life na iDC

Sun Mar 11 11:19:39 CET 2007

On Sun, March 11, 2007 8:42 am, Maria Riskova wrote:
> urcite existuje dost ludi, co tam ziju aj u nas - mozeme to pocas
> multiplace zistit... pocas multiplace asi pride do bratislavy kristian
> lukic z noveho sadu, ktory na tuto temu rozvija projekty so studentami -
> mame moznost stretnut ludi, ktori v SL ziju. mne osobne sa nechce ist
> specialne do tohto vyskumu prilis hlboko, skor ma zaujimaju komunitne
> aspekty  - zuzana prejavila zaujem dozvediet sa o tom viac aj v rovine
> ekonomickych mechanizmov (da sa v tom pokracovat aj po festivale)
>
>
>
> ano, "profituju" je spravne slovo - ak sa hovori o materialnych statkoch.
> je to celkom fascinujuci fenomen, tato schopnost profitovat materialne na
> duchovnom (uz povestne prizivovanie reklamy na progresivnom umeni) - no
> nemyslim si, ze treba mat v ramci celeho multiplace radikalny postoj
> ne-propagacie ("nebudem propagovat nieco s cim nesuhlasim ani tym, ze to
> kritizujem")
>
> nemyslim si tiez, ze co sa tyka SL je to tajomstvo, o ktorom sa nevie,
> takisto ako o tom, ze zabavny priemysel je jeden z najrobustnejsich -
> podla mna, second life patri k zabavnemu priemyslu, ale mozno aj k niecomu
> inemu (???) otazka je, ci si to uvedomuje aj bezny uzivatel a ci ho to
> vobec zaujima
>
> a co sa tyka toho, ze "vela uzivatelov je v SL stastnych podobne ako vedia
> byt stastni v servilite voci kapitalizmu realneho sveta" - to ma zaujalo
> nieco: tzv. kapitalizmus ako ekonomicky a spolocensky
> system funguje tak dlho preto, ze ma neobycajnu schopnost prisposobenia sa
> novym podmienkam - a verte tomu, ze second life pre ludi, ktori na nom
> profituju nie je nic nerealne - burzy a bankove institucie a aj vobec cely
> penazny system su predsa zalozene na virtualnych zakladoch (zasadna
> kritika je, ze cisla zastupuju realne komodity a ze takmer vsetko sa dnes
> moze stat komoditou - tovarom)... v istom zmysle su tito ludia velmi
> vpredu v pochopeni virtuality ale tu sa uz citim dost trapne, pretoze o
> ekonomike viem figu - a trapne sa citim aj pri pouzivani terminu
> kapitalizmus, myslim, ze odbornici na ekonomiu by sa nam vysmiali, urcite
> existuje tisic podforiem a terminov, ktore umoznuju lepsie chapat tieto
> problemy a termin kapitalizmus sa dostava k slovam ako imperializmus,
> kolonializmus atd. - nenajdeme na mtp niekoho, kto sa v tom vyzna? ale
> mozno to nie je take nutne teraz - ale ak sa rozhodneme venovat sa sietam
> ako je second life podrobnejsie a urobit prezentaciu pocas mtp, tak by sme
> nejakeho odbornika mohli pozvat...
>
>
>
> ine svety marka skopa su second life pre nas, co zijeme "inde" - pre
> protagonistov dokumentu je to "first life" :) second life je skor
> "paralel" life
> http://www.getafirstlife.com/
> go outside, membership is free :)
no sak jasne ze pre nich je to first,
som pouzila second life uz v inom vyzname nez je v to v tejto pocitacovej
smyslenke {hovoria vsetci o svojom a potom o niecom ako "second life"...no
ale dokumenty tu rozoberat nebudem}

bt

> caute marisa
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:56 PM +0100 3/10/07, babuta at 34.sk wrote:
>
>> ahoj ja nepoznam veru nikoho kto by tam "zil" a neviem ci by sa mne osobne
>> do toho chcelo, budovat si tam nejaky virtualny svet, aj ked je pravda,
>> ze o tom vela neviem. ze co sa tam akoze deje a ponuka...
>>
>> {vlastne mtp ak teraz isiel ako spoluorganizator do tych ostrovov, tak
>> sa zaviazal presne k comu? alebo to bol len podpis pro forma?}
>>
>> no a akurat som bola prisla z kina kde som bola druhy krat uz pozriet
>> markove skopove ine svety, tak to je podla mna second life...
>>
>> ale to len tak aby sa vedelo aj nieco z ineho oneho zitia caute
>>
>> bbt
>>
>> On Sat, March 10, 2007 7:59 pm, dusan wrote:
>>
>>> ahojte
>>>
>>> na iDC liste prebehla dvojtyzdnova debata o second life (SL). v
>>> sumari nizsie.
>>>
>>> kto nan nemate cas, zhrnuty v jednej vete: SL a vobec vacsina online
>>> virtualnych svetov 'pozuje' ako otvorena platforma a i napriek
>>> vedomiu, ze z "nematerialnej" prace (napr. univerzity do nich klonuju
>>> svoje budovy, aktivisti v nich vedu svoje kampane) profituje viacmenej
>>> len elita online podnikatelov, vela uzivatelov je v SL stastnych
>>> podobne ako vedia byt stastni v servilite voci kapitalizmu realneho
>>> sveta..
>>>
>>> mate so SL niekto skusenosti? neviem v sk/cz zatial o vela ludoch co
>>> ho skusali. (mm trochu to znie ako znie to trochu ako)
>>>
>>> dusan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------- Original Message
>>> ----------------------------
>>> Subject: [iDC] Second Life wrap-up; thanks
>>> From:    "Joshua Levy" <joshualev at gmail.com>
>>> Date:    Sat, March 10, 2007 5:27 pm
>>> To:      "IDC list" <idc at bbs.thing.net>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks all for a stimulating discussion about Second Life, gaming,
>>> labor, and education.
>>>
>>> Who is manufacturing virtual worlds and MMOs?  In response to Michel
>>> Bauwens question about this, Ana Valdes points out that the games
>>> market is almost 100 percent American, with these large companies
>>> having bought our smaller European companies over time.  However,
>>> Julian Dibbell points
>>> to a chart that suggests that U.S. companies are in fact responsible
>>> for only 40-60% of worldwide games and the us market share is 61.3%.
>>> The
>>> question of market dominance vs. ideological dominance comes into play
>>>  here.  Ana argues that, even if the market share isn't 100%, most
>>> video games share an ideology with the U.S., though Michel says he
>>> witnesses in Thailand dominant themes from Korea and Japan.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And on to the big L, which inspired some of the best discussion on
>>> the cultural ramifications of virtual worlds, virtual labor, and
>>> virtual economies.  Trebor opened the discussion by questioning the
>>> need to replicate the architecture of real-world sites within Second
>>> Life.  "Why
>>> do we need a replication of our own campus? Why not rather build a
>>> Black
>>> Mountain College with a Bauhaus Annex? Why teach in this virtual
>>> environment? Will SecondLife become a 3D version of Wikipedia, a
>>> virtual knowledge bank that offers a playful and fun interface to
>>> participant-generated content? Will students simply demand such
>>> playful access to knowledge?" he asks.  Eric Gordon offers a
>>> compelling argument for why he helped reproduce Emerson College's
>>> architecture in SL: "our decision to reproduce the architectural
>>> layout of campus and to recreate the Boston Common was deliberately
>>> made to correspond with our understanding of the platform's
>>> possibilities.  We see Second Life as a way of creatively re-imagining
>>> the space.  While, we're not able to screen student work in the
>>> physical Boston Common, it will be possible to do so in Second Life.
>>> "
>>>
>>>
>>> In addition to this recreation of material space, he finds that SL
>>> mirrors "first life capitalism" as well, that inequalities between
>>> labor and capital exist there as they do anywhere else in the world.
>>> Like
>>> historical relations between labor and capital, Trebor argues that
>>> users of sociable web media are not aware of their servitude towards
>>> the owners of those systems, though, like Michel, I take issue with
>>> his assertion that "many people in the US actually think that they are
>>> 'happy' and
>>> perceive this distributed labor of the sociable web as a fun leisure
>>> activity."  We are not in a position to judge what many people in the
>>>  U.S..
>>> think about their station in life, and to imply that the distributed
>>> labor of the sociable web simply provides gains for the owners of
>>> capital while pulling the wool over the eyes of the participants isn't
>>> fair towards either party.
>>>
>>> Alan Clinton offers a refreshing take on the problem of virtual
>>> labor:
>>> "At
>>> the risk of revising Marcuse, couldn't we say that consciousness of
>>> servitude is not really the problem so much as providing strategies
>>> for political agency?  People who are laboring know that they are
>>> laboring. People (and let's not dismiss the global south so quickly)
>>> who are suffering the violence of capitalism know they are suffering
>>> the violence of servitude.  They may lack awareness of ways to name
>>> this violence or attack it, but they are not unaware of their
>>> suffering." In response to the problem of proprietary systems like SL
>>> posing as open platforms, Andreas Schiffler suggests a radical,
>>> peer-to-peer system that involving shared servers and open source
>>> software that become a challenge to the "'Operating System + Deskop'
>>> metaphor sold by Microsoft and Apple." This setup could also provide
>>> an open source and peer-to-peer alternative to SL.
>>>
>>> In response to Simon Biggs' provocation that "SL is a misnomer. It is
>>> not a second life but simply a kind of first life, as constructed by a
>>>  dominant elite, represented in such a manner that it will function
>>> to further inculcate and embed its associated ideology on a global
>>> scale. It will sustain the fundamental ethic of consumerism...that we
>>> are all potential suckers or grifters (often both) and that nobody is
>>> responsible for what happens to anybody else. In short, it is another
>>> rip off culture," I would point him to a group that I'm involved with,
>>>  RootsCampSL, progressive activists that use SL as a platform for
>>> their work.  No one that I know there believes that their work stays
>>> in SL, but that it offers a unique space (in addition to other unique
>>> space) from whic to get the message out.  I would agree that SL is not
>>> a second life but in fact an extension of first life, but I have
>>> failed to find a dominant ideology there and in fact find it a fertile
>>> training ground for almost any ideology at all -- kind of like first
>>> life. Of course, I could just be blind to my own exploitation...
>>>
>>> And Charlie Gere helps us remember that terrorism, exploitation, or
>>> even rape in SL are not the same as their real-world counterparts.
>>> "Again
>>> imagine the reaction of someone who has been involved in attempting to
>>>  build and sustain communities in, for example, Iraq or Palestine,
>>> listening to someone describe the problems of community building in
>>> SL. I
>>> think grasping and holding onto this distinction is incredibly
>>> important." We need to keep perspective when talking about these
>>> virtual worlds and to remember that, however they provide us with
>>> experiential or spiritual stimulation, they are still secondary to the
>>> actual life-or-death circumstances most global citizens face.
>>>
>>> Looking forward to more discussion of this going forward; I trust
>>> that, in the face of so much media hype that inflates the economic and
>>>  sensational aspects of SL, we can all provide an ongoing
>>> counter-commentary that provides a little more depth and context.
>>>
>>> -Josh Levy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> iDC -- mailing list of the Institute for Distributed Creativity
>>> (distributedcreativity.org) iDC at mailman.thing.net
>>> http://mailman.thing.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/idc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> List Archive:
>>> http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> iDC Photo Stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mtp-teoria mailing list mtp-teoria at 13m3.sk
>>> http://13m3.sk/mailman/listinfo/mtp-teoria
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mtp-teoria mailing list mtp-teoria at 13m3.sk
>> http://13m3.sk/mailman/listinfo/mtp-teoria
>>
>
>
> !DSPAM:2,45f3b2617643149521311!
> _______________________________________________
> mtp-teoria mailing list mtp-teoria at 13m3.sk
> http://13m3.sk/mailman/listinfo/mtp-teoria
>
>
>
> !DSPAM:2,45f3b2617643149521311!
>
>