<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <html><head><style type="text/css"></style><title>Re: [mtp-teoria] second life na iDC</title></head><body> <div>urcite existuje dost ludi, co tam ziju aj u nas - mozeme to pocas multiplace zistit...</div> <div>pocas multiplace asi pride do bratislavy kristian lukic z noveho sadu, ktory na tuto temu rozvija projekty so studentami - mame moznost stretnut ludi, ktori v SL ziju. mne osobne sa nechce ist specialne do tohto vyskumu prilis hlboko, skor ma zaujimaju komunitne aspekty  - zuzana prejavila zaujem dozvediet sa o tom viac aj v rovine ekonomickych mechanizmov (da sa v tom pokracovat aj po festivale)</div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div>ano, "profituju" je spravne slovo - ak sa hovori o materialnych statkoch. je to celkom fascinujuci fenomen, tato schopnost profitovat materialne na duchovnom (uz povestne prizivovanie reklamy na progresivnom umeni) - no nemyslim si, ze treba mat v ramci celeho multiplace radikalny postoj ne-propagacie ("nebudem propagovat nieco s cim nesuhlasim ani tym, ze to kritizujem")</div> <div><br></div> <div>nemyslim si tiez, ze co sa tyka SL je to tajomstvo, o ktorom sa nevie, takisto ako o tom, ze zabavny priemysel je jeden z najrobustnejsich - podla mna, second life patri k zabavnemu priemyslu, ale mozno aj k niecomu inemu (???)</div> <div>otazka je, ci si to uvedomuje aj bezny uzivatel a ci ho to vobec zaujima</div> <div><br></div> <div>a co sa tyka toho, ze "vela uzivatelov je v SL stastnych podobne ako vedia byt stastni v servilite voci kapitalizmu realneho sveta" - to ma zaujalo nieco: tzv. kapitalizmus ako ekonomicky a spolocensky system funguje tak dlho preto, ze ma neobycajnu schopnost prisposobenia sa novym podmienkam - a verte tomu, ze second life pre ludi, ktori na nom profituju nie je nic nerealne - burzy a bankove institucie a aj vobec cely penazny system su predsa zalozene na virtualnych zakladoch (zasadna kritika je, ze cisla zastupuju realne komodity a ze takmer vsetko sa dnes moze stat komoditou - tovarom)... v istom zmysle su tito ludia velmi vpredu v pochopeni virtuality</div> <div>ale tu sa uz citim dost trapne, pretoze o ekonomike viem figu - a trapne sa citim aj pri pouzivani terminu kapitalizmus, myslim, ze odbornici na ekonomiu by sa nam vysmiali, urcite existuje tisic podforiem a terminov, ktore umoznuju lepsie chapat tieto problemy a termin kapitalizmus sa dostava k slovam ako imperializmus, kolonializmus atd. - nenajdeme na mtp niekoho, kto sa v tom vyzna? ale mozno to nie je take nutne teraz - ale ak sa rozhodneme venovat sa sietam ako je second life podrobnejsie a urobit prezentaciu pocas mtp, tak by sme nejakeho odbornika mohli pozvat...</div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div>ine svety marka skopa su second life pre nas, co zijeme "inde" - pre protagonistov dokumentu je to "first life" :)</div> <div>second life je skor "paralel" life</div> <div><font face="Lucida Grande" size="-3" color="#000000">http://www.getafirstlife.com/</font></div> <div>go outside, membership is free :)</div> <div><br></div> <div>caute</div> <div>marisa</div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div>At 10:56 PM +0100 3/10/07, babuta@34.sk wrote:</div> <blockquote type="cite" cite>ahoj<br> ja nepoznam veru nikoho<br> kto by tam "zil"<br> a neviem ci by sa mne osobne do toho chcelo,<br> budovat si tam nejaky virtualny svet,<br> aj ked je pravda, ze o tom vela neviem.<br> ze co sa tam akoze deje a ponuka...<br> <br> {vlastne mtp ak teraz isiel ako spoluorganizator do tych ostrovov, tak sa<br> zaviazal presne k comu? alebo to bol len podpis pro forma?}<br> <br> no a akurat som bola prisla z kina<br> kde som bola druhy krat uz pozriet markove skopove ine svety,<br> tak to je podla mna second life...<br> <br> ale to len tak<br> aby sa vedelo<br> aj nieco z ineho oneho zitia<br> caute<br> <br> bbt<br> <br> On Sat, March 10, 2007 7:59 pm, dusan wrote:<br> > ahojte<br> ><br> > na iDC liste prebehla dvojtyzdnova debata o second life (SL). v sumari<br> > nizsie.<br> ><br> > kto nan nemate cas, zhrnuty v jednej vete: SL a vobec vacsina online<br> > virtualnych svetov 'pozuje' ako otvorena platforma a i napriek vedomiu, ze<br> > z "nematerialnej" prace (napr. univerzity do nich klonuju svoje budovy,<br> > aktivisti v nich vedu svoje kampane) profituje viacmenej len elita online</blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite>> podnikatelov, vela uzivatelov je v SL stastnych podobne ako vedia byt</blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite>> stastni v servilite voci kapitalizmu realneho sveta..<br> ><br> > mate so SL niekto skusenosti? neviem v sk/cz zatial o vela ludoch co ho<br> > skusali. (mm trochu to znie ako znie to trochu ako)<br> ><br> > dusan<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > ---------------------------- Original Message</blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite>> ----------------------------<br> > Subject: [iDC] Second Life wrap-up; thanks<br> > From:    "Joshua Levy" <joshualev@gmail.com><br> > Date:    Sat, March 10, 2007 5:27 pm<br> > To:      "IDC list" <idc@bbs.thing.net><br> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------<span ></span>-----<br> ><br> ><br> > Thanks all for a stimulating discussion about Second Life, gaming, labor,<br> >  and education.<br> ><br> > Who is manufacturing virtual worlds and MMOs?  In response to Michel<br> > Bauwens question about this, Ana Valdes points out that the games market<br> > is almost 100 percent American, with these large companies having bought<br> > our smaller European companies over time.  However, Julian Dibbell points<br> >  to a chart that suggests that U.S. companies are in fact responsible for<br> >  only 40-60% of worldwide games and the us market share is 61.3%.   The<br> > question of market dominance vs. ideological dominance comes into play<br> > here.  Ana argues that, even if the market share isn't 100%, most video<br> > games share an ideology with the U.S., though Michel says he witnesses in<br> >  Thailand dominant themes from Korea and Japan.<br> ><br> ><br> > And on to the big L, which inspired some of the best discussion on the<br> > cultural ramifications of virtual worlds, virtual labor, and virtual<br> > economies.  Trebor opened the discussion by questioning the need to<br> > replicate the architecture of real-world sites within Second Life.  "Why<br> > do we need a replication of our own campus? Why not rather build a Black<br> > Mountain College with a Bauhaus Annex? Why teach in this virtual<br> > environment? Will SecondLife become a 3D version of Wikipedia, a virtual<br> > knowledge bank that offers a playful and fun interface to<br> > participant-generated content? Will students simply demand such playful<br> > access to knowledge?" he asks.  Eric Gordon offers a compelling argument<br> > for why he helped reproduce Emerson College's architecture in SL: "our<br> > decision to reproduce the architectural layout of campus and to recreate<br> > the Boston Common was deliberately made to correspond with our<br> > understanding of the platform's possibilities.  We see Second Life as a<br> > way of creatively re-imagining the space.  While, we're not able to<br> > screen student work in the physical Boston Common, it will be possible to<br> > do so in Second Life.  "<br> ><br> > In addition to this recreation of material space, he finds that SL<br> > mirrors "first life capitalism" as well, that inequalities between labor<br> > and capital exist there as they do anywhere else in the world.   Like<br> > historical relations between labor and capital, Trebor argues that users<br> > of sociable web media are not aware of their servitude towards the owners<br> >  of those systems, though, like Michel, I take issue with his assertion<br> > that "many people in the US actually think that they are 'happy' and<br> > perceive this distributed labor of the sociable web as a fun leisure<br> > activity."  We are not in a position to judge what many people in the<br> > U.S..<br> > think about their station in life, and to imply that the distributed labor<br> >  of the sociable web simply provides gains for the owners of capital<br> > while pulling the wool over the eyes of the participants isn't fair<br> > towards either party.<br> ><br> > Alan Clinton offers a refreshing take on the problem of virtual labor:<br> > "At<br> > the risk of revising Marcuse, couldn't we say that consciousness of<br> > servitude is not really the problem so much as providing strategies for<br> > political agency?  People who are laboring know that they are laboring.<br> > People (and let's not dismiss the global south so quickly) who are<br> > suffering the violence of capitalism know they are suffering the violence<br> > of servitude.  They may lack awareness of ways to name this violence or<br> > attack it, but they are not unaware of their suffering." In response to<br> > the problem of proprietary systems like SL posing as open platforms,<br> > Andreas Schiffler suggests a radical, peer-to-peer system that<br> > involving shared servers and open source software that become a challenge<br> > to the "'Operating System + Deskop' metaphor sold by Microsoft and Apple."<br> > This setup could also provide an</blockquote> <blockquote type="cite" cite>> open source and peer-to-peer alternative to SL.<br> ><br> > In response to Simon Biggs' provocation that "SL is a misnomer. It is not<br> >  a second life but simply a kind of first life, as constructed by a<br> > dominant elite, represented in such a manner that it will function to<br> > further inculcate and embed its associated ideology on a global scale. It<br> > will sustain the fundamental ethic of consumerism...that we are all<br> > potential suckers or grifters (often both) and that nobody is responsible<br> > for what happens to anybody else. In short, it is another rip off<br> > culture," I would point him to a group that I'm involved with,<br> > RootsCampSL, progressive activists that use SL as a platform for their<br> > work.  No one that I know there believes that their work stays in SL, but<br> > that it offers a unique space (in addition to other unique space) from<br> > whic to get the message out.  I would agree that SL is not a second life<br> > but in fact an extension of first life, but I have failed to find a<br> > dominant ideology there and in fact find it a fertile training ground for<br> >  almost any ideology at all -- kind of like first life. Of course, I<br> > could just be blind to my own exploitation...<br> ><br> > And Charlie Gere helps us remember that terrorism, exploitation, or even<br> > rape in SL are not the same as their real-world counterparts.  "Again<br> > imagine the reaction of someone who has been involved in attempting to<br> > build and sustain communities in, for example, Iraq or Palestine,<br> > listening to someone describe the problems of community building in SL. I<br> >  think grasping and holding onto this distinction is incredibly<br> > important." We need to keep perspective when talking about these virtual<br> > worlds and to remember that, however they provide us with experiential or<br> > spiritual stimulation, they are still secondary to the actual<br> > life-or-death circumstances most global citizens face.<br> ><br> > Looking forward to more discussion of this going forward; I trust that,<br> > in the face of so much media hype that inflates the economic and<br> > sensational aspects of SL, we can all provide an ongoing<br> > counter-commentary that provides a little more depth and context.<br> ><br> > -Josh Levy<br> > _______________________________________________<br> > iDC -- mailing list of the Institute for Distributed Creativity<br> > (distributedcreativity.org) iDC@mailman.thing.net<br> > http://mailman.thing.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/idc<br> ><br> ><br> > List Archive:<br> > http://mailman.thing.net/pipermail/idc/<br> ><br> ><br> > iDC Photo Stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/idcnetwork/<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > _______________________________________________<br> > mtp-teoria mailing list mtp-teoria@13m3.sk<br> > http://13m3.sk/mailman/listinfo/mtp-teoria<br> ><br> ><br> > !DSPAM:2,45f300137645153710862!<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> mtp-teoria mailing list<br> mtp-teoria@13m3.sk<br> http://13m3.sk/mailman/listinfo/mtp-teoria</blockquote> <div><br></div> </body> </html>